We all have preconceived ideas about pretty much everything…

Take for example the so-called “American stars”, one would think they are inevitably capricious, haughty, surrounded by an insuperable wall of lawyers, advisers and assistants of all sorts. One would think that obtaining the smallest word from one of them, especially when you represent an almost confidential website, is an impossible task.

If it’s probably the truth with film or sport industry, luckily, in the combat instruction field, you’re still able to find a few persons whose ego is inversely proportional to their fame.

 

The drummer on the above picture is better known for his very particular talents with a different kind of “percussions”. Kelly McCann is the kind of man who know how to remain humble in the success… Working with him on this interview was a real blast, for me as well as for my old time friend, Serge “TheBCollector”, who was kind enough to add his vast knowledge of combatives and American slang to the mix.

 

Kelly didn’t try to avoid any of our questions, even the most direct ones, and always answered with the total frankness and lack of political correctness which defines him.

So here is an acdsbelgium.org exclusivity: the raw and uncut interview from the most famous “American Star” of self-protection: Mr. Kelly McCann.

 

Rico: Hello Kelly. First of all, I thank you very much for your kind attention and would like to express my gratitude in the name of our readers.

 Kelly McCann: My pleasure Rico, nice of you to ask.

 

 R: Let’s start from the beginning, what kind of a child were you?

 

 KMC: Ha! That IS the beginning! I was what they called (back in the 60’s) a “hyperactive” kid. Today we know it as ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder). I’ve found it to be beneficial, I can hyper focus and it results in intensity as long as I work with it. ADHD is associated with the “T” personality type or “thrill seeking” which explains a lot. I was a happy kid with a loving family, got into mischief often and have always been self-driven to extremes.

 

R: I believe your favourite sports were rugby and especially motocross. How did you come to combat sports and martial arts?

 

 KMC: Yeah, all forms of off-road motorcycle racing, predominantly trials, then enduro’s and hare-scrambles, some flat track and ice racing too. I played 12 years of rugby between college and during my service in the Marines. I was drawn to combat sports and martial arts by the intensity of contact and the utility of it. I don’t do well with formalities or convention so I trained and fought with whoever and wherever I could which gave me a pretty rich exposure to various forms.  

 

 R:  I’ve read in an article that your Dad was himself a close combat instructor. As time goes by, do you think that it is now relevant when analyzing your professional career choices?

 

 KMC: My Dad is my best friend. He was always there for me and is a tough guy mentally and physically – something I admire. He really didn’t care what I did as long as I did it well. After his service he became a Civil Engineer. Other than encouraging me in all my pursuits, he never pushed me in one direction or another.

 

 R: It seems that you decided to follow a military career early in life. As a practitioner and instructor, what are the qualities brought to you by the Marine Corps, now and then?

 

 KMC: As an adolescent I came to realize I’d either be in law enforcement or the military. I looked up to the Marines because of their unique heritage and reputation so when I was old enough I joined to see if I measured up.

There are too many admirable qualities found in the Marine culture to list here but I’d say a few of the most important ones are integrity, confidence, endurance, courage...and the shared mindset Marines have of being, “No better friend, no worse enemy.” 

R: In the beginning of the 90's, you left the Marines and created "Personal Defensive Measures", which later became the famous "Crucible ". What are the main reasons to choose to be active in the private sector rather than remain in public service?

 KMC: My career was an anomaly. I was fortunate enough to do things that officers normally don’t have the opportunity to do. As a Special Missions Officer I personally conducted special operations training rather than just overseeing it. It’s what I love to do and what I’m good at.

 

Unfortunately, many times in the military you are inevitably promoted out of what you really love to do. As a Major, I was doomed to be assigned to some staff position and I would have gone crazy in that kind of structured environment. So I resigned to pursue the work I find most personally fulfilling.  

 

R: It's a wild guess but I can't go wrong thinking that people speak to you on a very regular basis about the Paladin Press DVD series "INSIDE THE CRUCIBLE." These DVD's and your “Guns & Ammo” columns (I think) brought your name to the general public’s attention and have profoundly influenced a whole generation of young practitioners (myself included ).  

 

But it will be quite interesting to find out how they had an impact on your own life? What did they bring to you – financial security, new business and personal relationships, the attention of the corporate or of the organisations in the security private sector?

 

 KMC: I think it was actually the “Personal Security” column in “Guns and Ammo” and both the “Defensive Pistol” and “Combatives 1, 2, & 3” VHS tapes that people started responding well to. I did the “Inside the Crucible” series later. Sure, those products (as well as books, etc.) result in “brand” recognition by potential users.

 

R: Brand recognition for sure, but what about the royalties?

 

KMC: The royalties are a nice annuity but are only a small percentage of what wholesale price is. Remember, the cost of producing DVD’s, books, etc. is borne by the publisher. Sure, there’s an investment in time by the author (DEFINITELY more in writing a book than shooting a DVD) but it’s the publisher that has to actually create the final product, package it, advertise, and then fulfil customer orders. They are burdened with the lion’s share of overhead. 

 

Anybody who is interested in pursuing writing or making instructional DVD’s should realize there’s no shortage of people who want to do likewise and that the real value to an author (in this genre) is the wider audience they achieve to share what they believe in.

 

Unfortunately too many people won’t write or author DVD’s because they’re fearful of criticism or feel compelled to try and please everyone – that’s impossible. Over the years I’ve found if someone is universally liked and has NO detractors it’s usually because they haven’t taken a stand on anything. I mean there’s always differing opinions.

 

 R: Being probably one of the most wanted instructors worldwide, you could probably stay in the "contractors and operators only" business. So, what are your reasons to open your business to civilians ?

 

 KMC: I haven’t yet. I’ve been considering it for some time. I made a deal with myself that if I got 1,000 “real” training inquiries from the www.kellymccanncombatives.com website I’d go forward with the concept. I’ve got to admit, it’s very close. That’s a scrubbed number discounting the folks who drop by just to say, “Hi” or to tell me what they think about a DVD or the book. If it happens, I’ve got ideas for a sister company to Crucible that would be dedicated to training civilians.

 

R: And what about Crucible, itself?

 

KMC: Crucible won’t become accessible to civilians because we train government and military personnel exclusively. It’s a medium size business with lots of moving parts (i.e. logistics, etc.). In a business like that, both the vendor and the customer have to be reliable. When we’re awarded a contract or receive a purchase order the training WILL take place and the number of students WILL be there on the dates indicated.

 

R: Which is not always the case with civilian training?

 

KMC : The civilian market is significantly different. People bail on training commitments all the time at the last minute. I’ve discussed this with some of my contemporaries who train civilians through seminars and sometimes they’re left holding the bag and can’t even cover their costs. That’s not a business, and not a great hobby either!

 

People that know me know I’m a seriously intense guy when it comes to training. I don’t do anything half-assed. I wouldn’t deal well with casual school shoppers or people who come to training and aren’t willing to train as hard as I believe is essential. I appreciate that people want to train with me and I don’t want to disappoint serious practitioners. I just don’t have a good solution at the moment. Maybe the answer is quarterly training seminars... 

I will tell you this – when I reach 1,000 “real” inquiries my website will change significantly and become very active...

 

R: You have already one more from my part...

 

Serge :  Is your new business relationship with the preeminent “Black Belt” magazine a new step into that direction?

 

KMC : The folks at “Black Belt” are great people. We just wrapped and shipped the DVD companion set to the book, “Combatives for Street Survival” (that we shot a year or so ago) and I think anyone who gets it will be pleased with the production quality and content. I wanted it to be different than the “Combatives 1, 2 & 3” set so people didn’t feel it was just repackaged content and I think we achieved that.

The book sold out in 5 months and is in its second edition already! During all this, the Executive Editor of “Black Belt” Bob Young and I developed a strong friendship. Bob is a lifelong martial artist, climber and all around thoughtful and considerate guy. He and I started down the road of a series of articles and ended up with the “Mil-Spec” column. It’s fun and fits with their new format. When I’ve run out of things to say we’ll crash the column.

S: Will you still maintain a relationship with Paladin Press ?

 

KMC: As for Paladin...I just finished shooting a new DVD with them this past weekend... something no one will expect and shows training I’ve never documented through writing or video mediums before. We had a blast shooting it. I hope people like it. I’ve always found Paladin to be professional and accommodating. In over 15 years we’ve grown together, I don’t see any reason to change our relationship.   

 

R: According to you, what are the main differences between instruction for pros and for civilians?

 

KMC: Reliability, as I’ve already mentioned.

 

Then liability, when official users show up to train in order to develop a personal capability necessary for mission attainment, they’ll go as hard and as long as it takes to master a skill. If they suffer an injury they either work past it or drop if they’re unable to continue and come back when they heal. In the civilian sector you can’t depend on the same mindset. You may encounter lacklustre performance or, if there’s an injury, be confronted with a law suit as a result.

 

Next is fitness. Military special mission users or other official types HAVE to meet organizational fitness requirements. They show up fit, mentally conditioned and ready to rock. With civilians there’s no telling what they’re made of until they show up or if they’re going to be able to meet course requirements.

 

Seriousness. If a guy knows that three weeks from training he’s going to be facing potentially life threatening circumstances somewhere in the world, he’s going to train his ass off and not want his time wasted. During some civilian seminars you have to deal with people who are recreationalists. Their “training” is more socially oriented than purpose oriented. They like to talk to other students about all the seminars, styles, techniques and instructors they’ve had exposure to, which is fine but not at the expense of other paying student’s who are there to learn what’s being taught and could give a shit less about anything else at that moment.

 

Guess that’s some of the differences.

 

 R: I really loved the first chapters of "Combative for Street Survival" where you explain the first courses for civilians you gave. I think that this bring back many enjoyable memories for  lot of us ... Retrospectively do you think that this kind of training is realistically intended for everyone?

Do you think that everyone is able (or willing) to pay the costs of such intense training on a physical, psychological and emotional level? If not, do you think that there is a way for you to open the doors and provide the general public with a good standard self defense program ? Or is it an impossible goal to reach – an unfordable quest?

KMC: Well, remember that what I describe in the book was a club. It wasn’t open to the public. Back in the firehouse days you had to know someone who vouched for you so “birds of a feather...” the group was self policing. We have had many people over those years come to training but after getting banged up never came back. .

 

R: As far as I know, from personal experience, it’s a constant in training group like these...

 

KMC : I said in the book that in my opinion, REAL combatives are best kept underground. I think there are a relatively small percentage of people who honestly, love to bang and understand the necessity of training that hard. When I ran the IPMC (Individual Protective Measures Course – Civilian, the focus of “Inside the Crucible.”), there were some pretty stringent screening prerequisites (age restriction, physician’s letter, psychologist’s letter, local law enforcement letter, etc.). You wouldn’t have believed the bitching and whining I got over that!

 

What’s the alternative? Agree to let someone train who is a criminal? A nut? Someone who is one pastry away from a stroke or heart attack? Not mature enough to understand combatives and then cooks off on some fraternity dipshit at a party seriously injuring them?

 

C’mon, I can’t do that. I wouldn’t do that.

 

I think there is a standardized curriculum that could be taught to civilians in a less intense manner that would improve their personal safety and security. Most of that content would be focused on developing their mindset, developing their skill in recognizing pre-incident indicators and improving their situational awareness.

 

R: I can’t agree more with you. But physical response, fighting actually, also has to be considered.

 

KMC: The problem I’ve run into trying to teach generalists to fight is that I believe you have to fight in training in order to learn how. Isn’t that obvious to everyone?  After all, you don’t learn to fly a plane by reading a book or watching someone else fly, at some point you have to fly the freaking thing yourself. Learning to fight is no different but a lot of people aren’t comfortable with that.

 

 R: Based on your experience having worked and instructed in many countries, is there a lot of difference in violent attacks and appropriate responses against them throughout the world?

KMC : Predatorial behaviour always appears the same no matter what country or culture you’re in. The instruments of violence do differ (i.e. knife cultures, particular types of edged weapons, prevalence of firearms, etc.) but what criminal predators initially notice about potential victims, how they select their victims and the physical actions they take to “set-up” their attack are all the same.

 

Far and away the best self-defense technique to master isn’t physical. Expert situational awareness and heightened sensitivity of pre-incident indicators are the keys to confrontation avoidance. Secondarily, I’d say it’s to relieve yourself of the burden of having to know something’s about to happen before you’ll take action to avoid a potentially dangerous situation.

 

R: I fully agree with you, once again, but how does this concept match the laws about self-defense?

 

KMC: My experience has been that if you act justly, unless you are in a completely corrupt country (and these places do exist), your actions in self defense are easily recognized as such and you’re unlikely to have any difficulties with local law enforcement. The caveat is that you’ve got to obey the host nation’s laws.

 

For example if it’s illegal to carry a knife – DON’T, because if you use it, you’re going to have to explain why you had it. Carry something else that at worst, could be considered a “weapon of opportunity.” For example a flashlight that is convenient to carry but is of sufficient weight, length and has the structural integrity to use as a short stick, bludgeon, yawara, Koppo or blackjack. With some forethought you can always think of something that you can lawfully carry that may not be a purpose built weapon but will do an adequate job just the same.

 

And follow your mother’s advice – “Stay out of trouble!”

 

 R: It appears Europe is not a common destination for you, and that your presence is or was not often detected here. If you don't mind me asking, do you now consider Europe for a goal to reach and as a new business opportunity to prospect? Is it reasonable for Europeans to believe that they will be able to have an access to your seminars by flying domestic instead of intercontinental? 

 

KMC: I hate to frustrate you but I just don’t know. By the way, I’ve been to Brussels and got a great flame tattoo on my left arm by a guy who had served in the Foreign Legion then drank many cold Stellas...but that’s a whole other story...!!

R: Next time give me a call, I’ll be glad to pay the first round of beers.

Serge : And the obvious question following that one is of course this one:  will

Kelly McCann live instruction remain for "Americans only" ? Or can Europeans realistically and seriously consider it?

 

KMC: I hope so! I’ve never intended to exclude anyone it’s just that my focus has been on official users here in the United States. Good people everywhere need to know how to defend themselves in an increasingly violent world.

 

 R: Being in the "business" for years, what’s your take on the current self defense "market?" 

 

KMC: Wow! There’s a loaded question! LOL!

 

R: As loaded as a G19!

 

KMC: I think the consumers in the self defense marketplace should be informed and make smart choices. There are a lot of charlatans out there claiming this or that. But the truth is, even a layperson should be able to look at someone who’s overweight, moves like a turtle and is obviously incapable of taking care of business and arrive at the right buying decision.

 

Sometimes the reverse is true and a guy who really does have valuable information to share is screwed by the marketing types who make outrageous claims in ad copy and on the packaging. BELIEVE ME – I’ve been pissed as hell over that kind of shit when marketing personnel make ridiculous claims on any of my products. It’s professionally embarrassing. Worse, consumers assume the author is making the outrageous claims and there’s no way to correct it once released. Maddening!

 

There’s a healthy dose of insufferables out there who can’t find a room big enough for both them and their ego to stand in, but they’re not fooling anyone except themselves.

 

I hate the bickering, name calling, forum flaming and bitch-mouthing bullshit that is so prevalent. Everyone should just shut the fuck up and train however they want to. You don’t need to validate what you’re doing by tearing what someone else is doing apart. There’s room for everyone. If someone’s skill or curriculum doesn’t stack up, they’ll be found out soon enough. In my opinion when you think you’re the toughest guy around it just proves you haven’t BEEN around.

 

 Honestly, I don’t bad mouth anyone. I don’t care enough about what anyone else is doing – besides, everyone’s entitled to their opinion. I do what I do, other instructors are free to do the same. Anyone who says their way is the only way obviously doesn’t understand that everyone moves differently based on their individual attributes and that necessitates different techniques for different people.

 

Whew!

 

R: Whew, indeed...

 

 S: If now, you allow me. Obviously, Bob Kasper has had a great influence on your professional life thru the Gung-Ho Chuan Association among other things, and thru his close combat teaching as well.

 

 KMC : Actually, it was the reverse of how your question is stated. Bob’s professional life was influenced by our involvement together. He was able to do things and go places he’d not been able to previously and as a result, changed professions late in life. Bob was a close and dear friend.

S: Could you tell us a bit more about the GHCA?

 

KMC:  Most people don’t understand what the GHCA was all about. The GHCA was a loose affiliation of “chapters” basically there was PDM (Virginia), PCT (New Jersey) and American Combatives (New York). PDM came into the GHCA last after I read an ad Bob had placed in the back of “Black Belt” magazine about the GHCA.

 

S: On a practical level, how did you work together?

 

KMC: We didn’t share a unified curriculum; we shared a unified mind set and work ethic. John Kary, Bob Kasper and I all had different takes on combatives, and that was okay. Twice a year we’d all get together and demonstrate and train techniques from our particular chapter. There wasn’t any petty bullshit, there wasn’t any nonsense. There’s been A LOT of bullshit conjecture circulated by people who weren’t even there back in the day. 

 

We all influenced each other. Some things that appear in “Combatives 1, 2 & 3” for example were an effort to represent what John Kary was doing (the wheeling cupped hand strike to the groin for example that John had picked up from John McSweeney). There are plenty of examples of the cross-pollination that occurred between chapters.

S: Is it possible for you to describe the presence of Bob Kasper’s heritage in your teaching and in your knife work?

 

KMC: I trained and taught a knife curriculum years before I was even aware of the GHCA, back to the early 80’s in the Marine Corps on Okinawa. That curriculum is represented in “Kembativ Knife.” It’s what I teach and believe is suitable even today; strictly utilitarian without anything extra.

 

While in the GHCA I deferred to Bob in regard to knife curriculum out of courtesy and respect for his dedication to knife tactics, just as he deferred to me in regard to stick and firearms tactics. We both included some of John Kary’s techniques out of respect for his dedication to true WWII hand to hand techniques.

 

John Kary never trained Bob, Bob never trained me and I never trained either of them. We just coexisted sharing the common bond of banging hard as hell and collectively digging the combatives way of life, each influencing each other and each other’s chapter. It was wonderful with no fucking agendas. It was also a snapshot in time that will never be captured again.

 

S : Still today, do you feel the influences of such characters as Charles Nelson, Bradley Steiner, John Kary or Carl Cestari in the core training provided by your friend Bob Kasper ? And so, do you feel that in your teaching as well?

 

KMC : Sure, as much as people may like to lay claim to originating something it’s impossible to not have been influenced by people you’ve known, experiences you’ve had, places you’ve been. No one develops in a vacuum.

All the guys you mentioned had / have value in things they say, techniques they believe in, what they profess, etc.  It’s like I said in the book, the more you know, the more you realize how little you know. When you drop your baggage and consider things reasonably and objectively you’re bound to learn something – even if what you learn is that a technique just won’t work for you personally.

S : You know perfectly well that guns are mostly prohibited in Europe for common people. Do you think that there are viable self protection programs and self defense techniques that could realistically avoid the way of the weapon and remain only unarmed? Or, is it totally unthinkable in our modern world based on  the progress of the delinquent underworld?

 

KMC : No, but as I said the majority of that material focuses on the front end of any potential attack, how to see it developing and avoid it. When weapons are present or even MAY be present, a higher standard of skill is necessary and even then there are no guarantees you’ll successfully defend yourself.

There are NEVER any guarantees of success from any technique...ANY. Attacks are a weird alchemy of chance, risk, luck, skill, speed, will and perseverance. They’re ALWAYS a gamble of some kind, to think otherwise is naive.

 

You’d like to think that at the end of the day, it’s the man not the technique, who is forged through hard, consistent training that prevails. Except that’s a fairy tale. It’s a factor to be sure, but never the sole deciding factor – only one of many. Because of that, it’s time well spent getting as good at avoiding a  fight as it is learning to fight proficiently.

 

 S : Very often in your documents, you are walking (as a lot of us do) on the edge of a razor. You underline the necessity to follow the local laws, but and also, you provide clues about the necessity, sometimes, to make a step out of these ones in order to remain safe while the shit hits the fan by choosing some solutions rather than other ones. How do you practice that?

 

 KMC: Criminals are unrestricted by the law. If the situation is dire, you are at a decisive disadvantage if you restrict yourself. The law in most places I’ve been supports the right to self defense. If you’re confronted with a “this is it” moment, then you have a right to do whatever is necessary to defend yourself.

 

There’s always the chance (there’s that word again) that you may have read the situation wrong, that the attacker wasn’t (or was) going to do this (or that). You simply can’t know. But if you are conflict avoidant and STILL find yourself in that moment, you very likely got it right. Use of force is a personal decision for everyone to make, under duress at the worst possible time. That doesn’t change the fact you may have to make that decision with only partial information, and no one can tell you what’s right or wrong because they won’t be there with you.

 

S: Is there a politically correct way to train to react?

 

KMC : Sure, “RUN!!!” LOL!

 

S: It is a utopic perspective, then?

 

KMC: In my hometown yesterday evening, a homeless man sleeping under a bridge was splashed with gasoline and set on fire by three teenagers. With people like that in the world, there’s no place for utopia of any kind.  

 

S : Knowing what you know, if you had to do it all over again, what would you change in your training, in your teaching, in your choices about the self protection matter ?

 

KMC : My Dad was watching us train years ago. During a break I walked over to him and he said, “Man, you guys have developed all this far beyond what we used to do.” I said, “Maybe. I sure wish I had this level of skill when I was younger.” He answered, “I’m not, because maybe some of the fights you kept getting into would’ve ended tragically, with you sitting on your ass in jail.”

 

What he meant, obviously, was that skill in combatives really requires the commensurate level of judgment.

 

No, I wouldn’t change anything. I think maturity and skill level converged at just about the right time for me.

 

S : It is clear and obvious that you are a vivid spectator of our self protection world. You read and hear about and probably see lots of documents (being DVD's or seminars video shots).

 

KMC: Less so than you may think.

 

S: What are the (few) names that you won't hesitate to recommend to someone as self protection teaching sources according your standards?

 

KMC: I wouldn’t want to offend anyone and NOT include them; I’m not the burning bush of combatives, LOL! So I’ll approach your question in a slightly different way:

 

My Dad told me once, “If you’re standing in front of someone who says they have something to teach you ask yourself the question, “If I cooked off on this guy right now, could he handle it?” If you honestly and objectively answer yourself, “No.” there’s probably no reason to stick around. If, on the other hand, you smile a little and have to admit, “I don’t know, it’d sure be a hell of a fight...!” you may want to hang around a little longer and learn something.”

 

In today’s internet based world there’s probably not an instructor out there who doesn’t have some representation online. Jump on the information highway and search for articles written by an instructor, write-ups of seminars people have attended that were taught by him or her, video footage of them moving and make your own educated evaluation. If what you see, hear and read is engaging, dynamic, effective and most of all, compels you to want to move like they do it’s a good bet you won’t be disappointed.

 

Thanks, Rico and Serge, for thinking well enough of me to ask these questions.

 

My best and kind regards.

 

Kelly McCann.